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Noseweight

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Tow Itch
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Re: Noseweight

Post by Tow Itch on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 8:48 pm

If relocating the battery then what is the current draw on the mover? A shorter length of cable from a box near the wheels will help ease the voltage drop to the mover.
I'd assume the battery will be exiting the Dandy on getting home but how will that reconcile with an under settee battery? Not the best place for servicing or having to erect the Dandy before and after arriving home to remove the battery or are you planning an access port?
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peridot
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Re: Noseweight

Post by peridot on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 9:03 pm

It will need some further investigation when I next have the unit open but I'm thinking in front of one of the wheel arches (probably the offside one under the sink unit) will be the best option. The battery will generally remain in place but would be accessible via the lower part of the door if necessary.

The mover controller will be immediately adjacent so will have a very short cable run.
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Tow Itch
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Re: Noseweight

Post by Tow Itch on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 9:24 pm

I can follow that. Also short run from fridge to battery if improved cable used for charging/fridge running while on the move.
Check the Fridge and battery are isolated from each other when voltage drops as the car engine is switched off. Depending how things are done they may not be isolated when the engine is running and voltage is above 13.5V but once the engine is off the fridge would flatten the battery in short order.

Good move putting battery elsewhere from position of electricity regs too. Battery and gas not to have been in same box since "16th Edition".

navver

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Re: Noseweight

Post by navver on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 9:37 pm

16th edition was around about 1990. How can Dandy be getting it wrong ever since then?
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peridot
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Re: Noseweight

Post by peridot on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 9:45 pm

The Destiny's previous owner found out the hard way that the wiring was not to standard. He had corrected the problem by splitting and rewiring the 12S cable within the front box ...

... however I've just converted it to the 13 pin system. I only had a single 7N socket on the car so rather than add a 7S I though it better to convert everything to 13 pin. On the camper I've wired up the towing lights but I'll leave the rest until I'm next away and can access the inside end of the 7S cable and ensure that it's all in good shape. I understand that it terminates behind the fridge so it may not be a simple job but, as I say, I'm in 'doing' mode at the moment Smile
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Tow Itch
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Re: Noseweight

Post by Tow Itch on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 9:58 pm

navver wrote:16th edition was around about 1990. How can Dandy be getting it wrong ever since then?


Not just Dandy. How many caravans comply with the bellow? At least Dandy had the get out of not being a caravan.
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Some interesting rules though. It won't ever apply to Dandys but who came up with the brilliance of a single pressure regulator for both propane and butane on caravans. wonder how many of those have been ripped out despite new rules.


Peridot. If going from 7 pin to 13 how old is your car who did is doing the split charge regulator etc.
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peridot
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Re: Noseweight

Post by peridot on Mon 11 Mar 2013, 10:56 pm

Tow Itch wrote:

Peridot. If going from 7 pin to 13 how old is your car who did is doing the split charge regulator etc.

Car is '06. Standard wiring - none of this canbus nonsense Cool

I've used a voltage sensing relay for the split charge / fridge circuits. I'm not altogether convinced of its long term reliability though, so may change that in due course.

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Tow Itch
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Re: Noseweight

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:09 am

Yes you know where I'm coming from. I'm sure your with the next bit, big wire more than one earth on the 13 pin. Some of the relays on cheap kit look a bit "Cheap". I'm no sparky but I think some consider activating bigger relays.
Only downside of 13pin as against 7N and 7S is it's MOT testable.
My rare original thought. If relocating the battery (even if not) consider fusing both the Live and Earth at the battery. Sometimes seen on older motorcycles (I've never seen on cars) gives a second chance in case of a short. Cuts down on fire risks. I'm sure you're already there but for others batteries are a great chance for fires the second fuse on the earth side(yes I know wiring rules and there is no frame return) is an insurance.


As your away with stuff here. What is fitted what on the charging side on the EHU? What have you looked at? What has been your thoughts on batteries? I have some vague ideas but minimal electrics. Not researched the answers yet but some right BS is uttered. I'll happily learn from you.
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peridot
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Re: Noseweight

Post by peridot on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 7:52 am

You're spot-on Tow Itch, it's the relays in the split charge unit that I'd be concerned about. I actually opened it up to check it had some as it looked too small! There were two in there but not the type you'd normally associate with automotive applications. It does work however, so I'll trust it for a while and perhaps change it out for something more robust in the future.

I've all the earths installed correctly at 'my' end but one of the reasons for not fully connecting the Dandy is that I want to see for myself exactly how it's wired as I know from the previous owner that it's far from compliant with any standard (and it's not as if there aren't enough to choose from Smile ).

Fusing both poles of the battery is a good idea and one that I'll take on board, thanks.

The EHU side of things will have to wait until after our trip away at Easter. I took only a cursory glance at things when I picked up the Dandy. The charger fitted (presumably from build) looked like a well made component, with fitted cooling fan, etc. I don't recall the make though. I'm hoping not to have to make too many changes on that side of things.

As for the batteries themselves, well that is a minefield. There are lots of strong opinions regarding different brands out there. How many people however, have experience of numerous different battery types in a comparable duty cycle and maintenance environments over extended periods of time? Very few I expect.

Having just bought the camper and needing to invest in a mover also, I'm afraid that price is going to be a significant factor so I'm staying clear of some of the more advanced technologies that I know would interest me if I looked Smile

For a basic battery I tend to work on the assumption that it should last around as long as its guarantee period so should I go for a Numax with a 3-year warranty, or an Elecson with a 5-year warranty? Dividing the purchase cost by the length of guarantee gives the same figure so cost per year is the same.

Thoughts welcome.


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Helen
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Re: Noseweight

Post by Helen on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 8:16 am

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We're still considering solar power, we don't really need it with the Designer but we also have a caravan and don't want to be limited to how or where we use it, we don't use EHU often with the Dandy even on extended stays the battery lasts but have found the van a different story Rolling Eyes

navver

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Re: Noseweight

Post by navver on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 10:32 am

You will need an externally acessible isolator for the mover as you have to switch this on every time you use it. It times out if not used. Ours is in the battery box just below the EHU plug.
The battery is on the right with a seperate internal compartment for the EHU and space below for a little rotary isolator.

The current draw for the mover is rated at 80A max and 15A average so the isolator needs to be suitable and protected from the weather.

It could be inside the Dandy as long as it's accessible. You'd need to open the door at least I guess to get at it.



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Tow Itch
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Re: Noseweight

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 12:47 pm

Fully checking out the wiring on board. I'll go for that.

The charger fitted. Any idea on the voltage or output characteristics of that? The safety feature (what is safer about it???) of only charging at 13.8V as per Sig and some other units. The rate of charge because of the low voltage means a battery may never fully charge. The stuff I don't know is viz a via higher voltage dumb chargers and various intelligent chargers.

Battery types is more what I was thinking about. Brands? Guarantees are they worth the paper written on? There has to be so many caveats and exclusions on guarantees. Any egit could trash a battery in under 6 months. Sellers will either dodge the warranty or be so overpriced that their hassle isn't worth it(price was part of the product niche) Or the warranty is for faulty manufacture, if the battery goes back to the manufacture it's a leap of faith to expect the truth. How do you guarantee a battery with so little agreement on how to charge? If the price per guaranteed month is the same. Then knowing nothing about batteries I'd go for the shortest guarantee period because the chance of a higher percentage of life beyond guarantee is greatest?
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peridot
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Re: Noseweight

Post by peridot on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 7:40 pm

navver wrote:You will need an externally acessible isolator for the mover ...


Yes that is an issue. I had thought about fitting an enclosure into the side of the dandy to take the isolator, however that wouldn't suit the location I have in mind for the battery and the access that's available when the unit is stowed in my garage.

Plan B is to use a contactor to switch power to the control box for the mover. The contactor will be operated by a switch in the front box, which will always be accessible.

Nothing is ever as simple as it first seems Neutral

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peridot
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Re: Noseweight

Post by peridot on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 7:48 pm

Tow Itch wrote: ... Then knowing nothing about batteries I'd go for the shortest guarantee period because the chance of a higher percentage of life beyond guarantee is greatest?

My thoughts exactly. If I get longer out of the battery than I had budgeted for I'll be happy, a shorter life and a useless 'guarantee' will leave me disappointed.

I did read an article some time ago where the author had cut open a number of leisure batteries (including an expensive 'top of the range one') and discovered that, despite manufacturer's claims, their construction was no different to standard car batteries. There was clearly concern over legal action however as no names were given.

With the advent of motor movers and their high current demand manufacturers are now marketing 'dual function', 'semi-traction' models which, I suspect, are no different to the rest of their leisure range.


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Tow Itch
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Re: Noseweight

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 8:41 pm

I'd read stuff about starter and leisure batteries being little or no different but that was a good while ago (John Wickersham?) no idea if the world has moved on.

Plan B is to use a contactor to switch power to the control box for the mover.
Now as stated I know nowt and am no sparky but thought a "contactor" was a mains relay?

Far to many technical terms surfacing here come on peridot what do you do. What part of your knowledge base can we freeload on?

navver

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Re: Noseweight

Post by navver on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 10:24 pm

A contactor is a big relay. Both can have 12 volt coils etc. A contactor will normally be used to switch large currents supplying power to a load whereas a relay is normally used to switch small currents for control purposes including the control of contactor coils.

ps. I don't think it is very clear what the physical difference is other than size, but I just thought, a contactor has a pair of contacts connected by a bar whereas a relay has a contact which is hinged on one side with the contact on the other.

If that's not clear I'll get my mate Stan Unwin to clarify it for you.
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peridot
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Re: Noseweight

Post by peridot on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 10:54 pm

Tow Itch wrote:

Far to many technical terms surfacing here come on peridot what do you do. What part of your knowledge base can we freeload on?

Ha ... rumbled Smile

My background is as a sparky - industrial rather than domestic or auto, although some experience across the board. Been deskbound for a long time now so not necessarily up to speed on latest regulations etc., but happy to help with any generic questions. For Dandy specific stuff, I'll be relying on you guys for a while yet anyway.

navver has given a perfect explanation re. contactors/relays - It's a bit like the boat / ship argument, no one is quite certain where the boundary lies Question



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Tow Itch
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Re: Noseweight

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 12 Mar 2013, 11:47 pm

navver wrote:A contactor is a big relay. Both can have 12 volt coils etc. A contactor will normally be used to switch large currents supplying power to a load whereas a relay is normally used to switch small currents for control purposes including the control of contactor coils.

ps. I don't think it is very clear what the physical difference is other than size, but I just thought, a contactor has a pair of contacts connected by a bar whereas a relay has a contact which is hinged on one side with the contact on the other.

If that's not clear I'll get my mate Stan Unwin to clarify it for you.

navver missed the end of your post. Oh yes the joys of a programme where you entered a phrase and it was said in Unwinesqe language. peridot when you get your feet under the table I think I have a project for a few of you re the BS uttered about battery charging systems. Right that's that just lost 1/2 the technically capable members.

For those too young to remember or for us older to raise a smile..

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