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Hi I need a little assistance

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julie72

Posts : 65
Join date : 2012-07-01
Age : 45
Location : Staffordshire

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by julie72 on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 9:27 am

Laughing haha Helen very good

and cheers Smile xx
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Helen
Dandy Owner

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Join date : 2011-06-12

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by Helen on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 9:36 am

There's always the option of taking a towing test, it wouldn't matter too much if your car was smaller most people have no worries about towing a 6 but wouldn't go as far as a Destiny. If you were unfortunate enough to end up in an accident the insurance companies may look into how much weight there was at the time and if your license allowed for it or not .... if they can get out of paying they usually will pale

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The bonus of taking the test is that unlike lots of us with pre 1997 licenses you'd be able to reverse your Dandy properly Laughing
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julie72

Posts : 65
Join date : 2012-07-01
Age : 45
Location : Staffordshire

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by julie72 on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 12:41 pm

I didn't really fancy taking the test Helen, I hated learning to drive lol. Its not that my car is small its actually a people carrier
which makes the weight a problem.
I think I'll probably go for the light blue one then there will be plenty weight left over to play with without the worry that its not legal.
Like you say the insurance companies will do anything to get out of paying xx
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ShaunJUK

Posts : 590
Join date : 2011-09-26
Age : 38
Location : Grimsby

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by ShaunJUK on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 5:16 pm

The government website has been updated and I must say it makes it a lot easier to understand, there was lots of complicated information on it before and I couldnt get my head around it. This is all they have (and need) on there now.


A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750 kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500 kg. The fully loaded trailer must also not be heavier than the unladen vehicle.
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Tow Itch
Dandy Expert

Posts : 3176
Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Leigh Gtr Manchester

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 6:35 pm

julie72 wrote:I didn't really fancy taking the test Helen, I hated learning to drive lol. Its not that my car is small its actually a people carrier
which makes the weight a problem.
I think I'll probably go for the light blue one then there will be plenty weight left over to play with without the worry that its not legal.
Like you say the insurance companies will do anything to get out of paying xx

The Maximum Authorised Mass is the term we now use for Gross Vehicle Weight remember:

Glossary of Mass (weight) Related Terms Any hope of a sensible law on towing is lost when those framing it mix up the terms weight and mass but here is a glossary of terms from the NTTA (National Trailer And Towing Association) Any Italics mine.

Unladen Weight (UW)
The weight of the trailer (or towing vehicle) less removable optional equipment and load but what is quoted may or may not include aircon, other options and tow bar. If it suits your purpose weigh your car empty and deduct the fuel load
Gross Weight
The total weight of the trailer (or towing vehicle) and load Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) or Gross Weight Mass (GWM) The total weight of the towing vehicle and its load Never heard of GWM but is also the same as Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
Maximum Gross Weight (MGW)
The maximum figure set by the manufacturer for the gross weight. This will normally be the technically permissible maximum based on the carrying capacity of the tyres, axles, coupling, suspension and chassis but may have been adjusted downwards for commercial reasons
Technically Permissible Maximum Weight MTPM is usually applied to to caravans where the notional maximum for the chassis is varied on different models.
The technically permissible maximum based on the capacity of the tyres, axles, coupling, suspension and chassis
Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
As maximum gross weight above. The latest EC term as used in the Driver Licensing Regulations
Gross Train Weight (GTW )
The maximum allowable combined weight (combined MAM) of the towing vehicle and trailer as set by the towing vehicle manufacturer
Payload:
The difference between the gross weight of the trailer and its unladen weight, i.e. The load carrying capacity
Kerb Weight/Kerbside Weight
The weight of the towing vehicle (without payload), including all fluids required for operation (95/48/EEC: Vehicle, 90% full tank, 68kg driver and 7kg luggage.) not always been defined and you may find your handbook lists a figure derived differently see also unladen weight wrt accessories




I think I'll probably go for the light blue one then there will be plenty weight left over to play with without the worry that its not legal.
Like you say the insurance companies will do anything to get out of paying xx

Julie I'm so dissapointed you are so easilly put off. We will dot all the i's and cross the t's before we suggest you buy something unsuitable.
What I was worried about last night was the Maximum Authorised Mass of the car and fitting you, your beloved, all you sprogs plus general gear into about 650Kg of payload. Both forms of Highside carry the same 220Kg of payload (The Riva one 170Kg if downplated to 950Kg) and both (when re plated) will be legal to tow. It was a much more general question about your towing vehicle I had.
If I ask awkward questions or push you as to where you got details from it is to get the facts right and things are looking a lot better than when I was framing questions last night. (BTW I started to write that just after 9PM fell asleep woke up about 1230AM thought i must finish that and the next thing I knew it was 01.50 so it's not my most flowing answer)
Last night I was looking at you having an unknown 8 seater car with a low MAM. So I was looking at 2 Adults and 6 Kids plus kit into a vehicle I'd guestimated to have about 650Kg payload. I couldn't get everything into that weight limit.
Today a known vehicle 7 seater not 8 (2,535Kg within a few Kgs of what I found but Do Check The B pillar) So we have a payload of about 760Kg. Then we find as 8 don't fit into 7 you normally take another car = more chance to distribute payload. As can be seen 2 adults and 6 kids into 650Kg is very different than 1 adult and 4? kids into 760Kg plus you can add load to the other car.

The one thing I'd ask is for you to check that you are happy towing the slightly larger and higher trailers. Is an Alhambra high enough up so you still see over the top of a Highside Destiny? At 135cm they are 20cm higher than a standard Dandy.

If you have any fears or concerns over weights we will go through them as many times as you like. If necessary I'd PM you my phone no and you can read through the weights and make notes. There is a lot of rubbish talked on websites and I am just as capable of brain fade as anyone else so I'll either refer to websites or suggest who to check things out with.
I have some history on this. Last year one of my mates was told as he had a comercial vehicle and when it's in a towing configuration it's train weight could be over 3,500Kg he must have a tachograph. He confirmed this with a VOSA traffic officer. We started to check on downplating the vehicle but after corresponding with the NTTA we heard a different story. It appears that VOSA had been misinterpretating the law, or after failing to gain convictions at court re interpreted their "enforcement". They now only seek tachographs on commercial vehicles towing where the actual train weight exceeds 3,500Kg not where the unit has a capacity over 3,500Kg. We eventually got an email to confirm this from VOSA's head of ???Compliance??

Loads of members are good on this site at welcoming people aboard or remembering birthdays I'm not so bright at that sort of stuff. What I do is the tech stuff (How tech an a tent in a box on wheels get!). I'm supposed to make you happy and comfortable about tech details. I would be mortified if you bought second best because you wern't comfortable about details I failed to make clear.

Have sit down decide what you are not sure about. If you are not sure what you are not sure about that is OK. If you are bothered who you can verify facts with we will go through the options on that.
If you fail to buy the right Dandy then I have failed you and we can't be having that can we?
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Tow Itch
Dandy Expert

Posts : 3176
Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Leigh Gtr Manchester

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 6:45 pm

ShaunJUK wrote:The government website has been updated and I must say it makes it a lot easier to understand, there was lots of complicated information on it before and I couldnt get my head around it. This is all they have (and need) on there now.


A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750 kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500 kg. The fully loaded trailer must also not be heavier than the unladen vehicle.

Shaun

Have you got the address for that site? Not sniping at you just bemused that after getting it wrong they could correct things then get it wrong again on the new website. The newest "Gov UK" site I could find gets unladen weight and kerbweight mixxed up of fails to see the difference where the preceeding site was correct. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)
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Helen
Dandy Owner

Posts : 6826
Join date : 2011-06-12

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by Helen on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 7:03 pm

Someone who wanted to borrow our caravan a few weeks ago also came up with the combined 3500kg rule, I told them they were wrong but didn't know for sure as last time I looked it didn't say that ... and I couldn't find it Shocked

Oh by the way Julie ..... when's your Birthday, I'll remember to congratulate you lol!
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julie72

Posts : 65
Join date : 2012-07-01
Age : 45
Location : Staffordshire

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by julie72 on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 7:28 pm

Tow Itch don't feel that you're failing me at all, I do find it a bit of a brain ache trying to work it all out but I really appreciate the effort you are putting in to help me choose.
If I'm honest I do like the newer style Destiny with the toilet although that extra isn't a must, I came here to seek advice about what to buy and everyone has been extremely helpful.
Especially yourself, I'll never settle for second best just what fits best into my situation if you know what I mean Very Happy

The bit I don't understand is the MAM does that include passengers and luggage? Or are they extra on top?
And the gross weight on the trailer is that when its loaded with extra luggage or just with what it contains without?

Generally when we go away its usually myself my mum and 2 kids in my car and my other half and 2 kids in his car and kind of share the luggage between the 2 also.
Do you think with doing this the weight won't be so bad?

Thanks for staying up so late to try and help me too it is appreciated x but can I say I don't feel like people are putting me off I feel they are just advising. I think I'll probably decide properly once I view them in person. I'm not sure about the hieght but I know my driving position is a lot higher than a saloon so it maybe ok.

Lol Helen my birthday is june 8th and i'll look forward to you congratulating me Laughing




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peridot
Dandy Admin

Posts : 545
Join date : 2012-09-01
Location : Newport

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by peridot on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 8:36 pm

Tow Itch wrote: I'd find out if they did by any chance plate the tail end Riva models (obviously the Destiny in particular)

Just on this point - I can find no evidence of a plate on my 2007 Riva Destiny so I don't think any have ever been plated.

I look forward to reading this thread at a quieter time and gaining a better understanding of the issues. Thanks Tow Itch for the detailed posts. I recall doing a quick check before buying it to confirm that I would be within the 3500kg limit and the "85% rule" but didn't quite grasp all the nuances at that stage.

I also plan to take my unit to a public weighbridge at some stage and get an actual reading for reassurance.
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Helen
Dandy Owner

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Join date : 2011-06-12

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by Helen on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 8:41 pm

Saw one on one of the very first dark blue with loo Destiny's, the plate was on the A frame. Mike also saw it and we both commented because ours didn't have them we thought it was very posh and a good idea for easy reference, the Dandy was bought from Riva Smile
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Helen
Dandy Owner

Posts : 6826
Join date : 2011-06-12

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by Helen on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 9:11 pm

Okay there are going to be 7 of you, what would you prefer ..... more space with more seating options or a fridge and deeper units taking up the space? that's a choice only you can make but me and my hubby find a 5 berth Dandy just the right size for two of us and one dog plus occasionally having a toddler with us. It's like most tents, a two man is just about suitable for one person. A 6/lowside Destiny has more seating options and a bit more space inside because it doesn't have a fridge and it only has a two ring burner and narrower units. Whatever you buy make sure you have an awning, you'll need the extra space Laughing
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ShaunJUK

Posts : 590
Join date : 2011-09-26
Age : 38
Location : Grimsby

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by ShaunJUK on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 9:49 pm

Tow Itch wrote:
ShaunJUK wrote:The government website has been updated and I must say it makes it a lot easier to understand, there was lots of complicated information on it before and I couldnt get my head around it. This is all they have (and need) on there now.


A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750 kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500 kg. The fully loaded trailer must also not be heavier than the unladen vehicle.

Shaun

Have you got the address for that site? Not sniping at you just bemused that after getting it wrong they could correct things then get it wrong again on the new website. The newest "Gov UK" site I could find gets unladen weight and kerbweight mixxed up of fails to see the difference where the preceeding site was correct. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or ‘kerb’ weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)

It was on gov.uk after I put in my license details
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Tow Itch
Dandy Expert

Posts : 3176
Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Leigh Gtr Manchester

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 02 Apr 2013, 11:59 pm

julie72 wrote:Tow Itch don't feel that you're failing me at all, I do find it a bit of a brain ache trying to work it all out but I really appreciate the effort you are putting in to help me choose.
If I'm honest I do like the newer style Destiny with the toilet although that extra isn't a must, I came here to seek advice about what to buy and everyone has been extremely helpful.
Especially yourself, I'll never settle for second best just what fits best into my situation if you know what I mean Very Happy

The bit I don't understand is the MAM does that include passengers and luggage? Or are they extra on top?
And the gross weight on the trailer is that when its loaded with extra luggage or just with what it contains without?

Generally when we go away its usually myself my mum and 2 kids in my car and my other half and 2 kids in his car and kind of share the luggage between the 2 also.
Do you think with doing this the weight won't be so bad?

Thanks for staying up so late to try and help me too it is appreciated x but can I say I don't feel like people are putting me off I feel they are just advising. I think I'll probably decide properly once I view them in person. I'm not sure about the hieght but I know my driving position is a lot higher than a saloon so it maybe ok.

Lol Helen my birthday is june 8th and i'll look forward to you congratulating me Laughing




The weights:
Unladen Weight: The weight less all removeable loads. So just vehicle and oil, coolants, battery etc.
Kerbside Weight: As above plus Driver of 68Kg a 90% fuel load and 7Kg of luggage.(95/48/EEC definition)
Both these figures are quoted but can vary model to model i.e. one with air con to one without. though in truth these are poorly defined. Is the tow bar part of the unladen weight or not? different profile wheels and tyres? The list is endless. Hence prosecutions on matters of weight within a small margin are not persued because the starting point is ill defined.

Maximum Authorised Mass: The maximum weight of the vehicle. Vehicle, fluids, fuel, driver, passengers and all loads.
The slightly odd bit is that the noseweight of the trailer is added on to the MAM of the car.
e.g. A car of MAM 2,000Kg with a trailer of Maximum Gross Weight of 1,000Kg is legal if the trailer weighs 1,065Kg if the nosewight is 65Kg or more as long as the nosewight doesent make the car overweight or exceed the design specification of the tow bar.

Gross Train Weight: The maximum allowable train weight set by the manufacturer. So the loaded trailer and vehicle together can't add up to more.

Weights if measured will be measured by axle weighing devices or on a weighbridge to determine axle weights, vehicle and trailer weights. I have no idea how good the newest axle weighing devices are but unless the world has turned on it's head they are not better than figures from a weighbridge. Few weighbridges have a perfectly level run off and on area. This would be necessary to accurately determine a vehicle and trailer strading off the weighbridge.
Most modern weighbridges are of the loadcell type and so are not built into pits but have considerable slopes both for and aft. Split weighing on these is not possible. Hence overweight prosecutions are not on the basis of 30Kg here or 50Kg there. How do I know this? I spent the 1st 4 years of my working life at colliery weighbridges for coal merchants, HGV vehicles and rail weighbridges.
Of course one should strive to be within weight limits. Though we have discovered the relative weights of the towing and towed vehicles don't affect the stability of the outfit as much as many features. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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peridot
Dandy Admin

Posts : 545
Join date : 2012-09-01
Location : Newport

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by peridot on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 8:36 am

Helen wrote:Saw one on one of the very first dark blue with loo Destiny's, the plate was on the A frame. Mike also saw it and we both commented because ours didn't have them we thought it was very posh and a good idea for easy reference, the Dandy was bought from Riva Smile

That's interesting Helen. Do you know if it was bought new or secondhand from Riva? I'm just wondering whether they started adding them to units that went back for servicing etc.
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Helen
Dandy Owner

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Join date : 2011-06-12

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by Helen on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 8:44 am

It was a 2004/5 Destiny bought second hand from Riva, it could have been put on at the request of the first owner I don't know, Mike and I were measuring Dandy's for the identification/information thread when we noticed the plate, we were looking to date the Dandy and found that in the front box lid there was a date of 2004 but we couldn't find a date stamped on the A frame like we do on our Dandy's and thought perhaps the plate had covered it over.
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julie72

Posts : 65
Join date : 2012-07-01
Age : 45
Location : Staffordshire

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by julie72 on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:11 am

Helen wrote:Okay there are going to be 7 of you, what would you prefer ..... more space with more seating options or a fridge and deeper units taking up the space? that's a choice only you can make but me and my hubby find a 5 berth Dandy just the right size for two of us and one dog plus occasionally having a toddler with us. It's like most tents, a two man is just about suitable for one person. A 6/lowside Destiny has more seating options and a bit more space inside because it doesn't have a fridge and it only has a two ring burner and narrower units. Whatever you buy make sure you have an awning, you'll need the extra space Laughing


Helen I think whatever I get the awning is a definate must
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peridot
Dandy Admin

Posts : 545
Join date : 2012-09-01
Location : Newport

Re: Hi I need a little assistance

Post by peridot on Wed 03 Apr 2013, 9:16 am

Helen wrote:... we couldn't find a date stamped on the A frame like we do on our Dandy's and thought perhaps the plate had covered it over.

On mine the serial number and date are stamped onto a separate plate that is riveted to the A frame, where the directly stamped number is on older models.

Perhaps the weight plate had replaced that original plate.

There's always plenty of variety where Dandy's are concerned Smile


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