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Dandy Tyres

ShaunJUK
ShaunJUK

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Post by ShaunJUK on Mon 22 Apr 2013, 7:21 pm

Ok so resurrecting a previous question which I have still to take action on.

I need to replace my dandy tyres before they cause me a problem.

Currently i have 5.20-10 tyres on which are branded Camac, what alternative can i put on my wheels?

Thanks
Shaun
Tow Itch
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Post by Tow Itch on Mon 22 Apr 2013, 10:16 pm

Well I really did think we had flogged this to death here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

But to outline again you can fit 5.20-10 in crossply or bias belted. 5.00-10 in crossply or bias belted. 145/80 10 as a radial or bias belted.

The ones you were looking at in the above thread [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] are fine with a load rating of 69 they are good for 650Kg over the axle. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

As the British association of tyre manufacturers no longer refer to an age related replacement of the tyre you might ask the suppliers the policy of the particular tyre brand that you are thinking of buying. Of course they won't know anything about this but there you go. 1 manufacturer thinks you should replace after 7 years while another isn't bothered but not much publicity on this when selling.
Also see if they know the age of the tyres as putting 3 year old tyres on reduces the service life by that amount if replacing by age.

Tow Itch
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Post by Tow Itch on Tue 23 Apr 2013, 11:40 am

Shaun

Second time I've done this and it's not good form at all. It doesn't matter what I think has been flogged to death what is important is why you were asking.
Is there some doubt in your mind about changing sizes or is your concern somewhere else?
mike
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Post by mike on Tue 23 Apr 2013, 4:22 pm

Any good tyre company should point you in the direction of trailer tyres,the thing you need to remember is make sure you get the correct loading on them,your dandy is max 500kg so you will need tyres with at least a loading of 250kg each giving 500 kg total for the axle,i would try and get 275kg giving 550kg so a bit to spare.
ShaunJUK
ShaunJUK

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Post by ShaunJUK on Sat 27 Apr 2013, 9:15 pm

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This one looks ok too?
Tow Itch
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Post by Tow Itch on Sun 28 Apr 2013, 1:21 am

Just a thing to think on Shaun if your getting tyres fitted. Elsewhere there were issues that a couple of Dandys had shed wheels.
My thoughts were that all the people who had problems had recently had tyres fitted or their wheels refitted by garages. The studs on Dandy wheels are 3/8ths these are quite thin. the recommended torque for the nut is 42lbft. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Looking for something else I found this piece by Collyn Rivers. Now Australia is a far harsher environment than the UK for trailer use so some of the reasons are not as valid but one part of the piece is. (By the way I'm not sure I agree on part of the description of how a nut works) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Tightening Wheels

The fastener industry and automobile industry emphasise that wheel nuts and studs must never be even remotely tightened by rattle guns (impact wrenches). The final tightening must only be done by using a high quality torque wrench of known accuracy - and to the vehicle manufacturer's specified amount only. They must then be rechecked and tightened further if necessary after 50-100 km, and again after 1000 km. But any number of tyre fitters 'know better' and use only rattle guns.

Be aware that rattle guns are very prone to overtightening - and that is counter-productive. This is because excess tension may stretch the stud to the point where its diameter is reduced whilst under such high over-tension - and thus increasing interthread spacing. In far from unknown extreme cases it may result in the stud eventually cracking and/or sheering off.

If a lubricant is used (and most authorities recommend against it) the tightening torque must be reduced by about 20%. Anti-seize materials must never be used for any but totally static applications. This is because one of their intended roles is to ease undoing.

Follow this sequence:

1. Clean the threads thoroughly and ensure the nuts spin freely, by hand alone, along the stud's full threaded length. Discard any that do not, and never use a nut or stud that is or has been corroded. The studs and nuts need to be totally clean, dry, and unlubricated.

2. Locate the wheel on the studs and finger-tighten using a diagonal sequence. Give the wheel a few wriggles to allow it to locate correctly.

3. Tighten the wheel nuts progressively and working diagonally.

4. Use a torque wrench for the final tightening. Torque only to the vehicle maker’s specifications. Do not exceed specified tightness. The only too common belief that more is better has no foundation.

5. Recheck after 50 km, and after a further 100 km. If further retightening is needed there is a very real possibility that whatever is being clamped is under-engineered and is progressively bending. (This occurred with the U-bolt axle clamping plates on early OKAs (including our own). If so this needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency by an engineer.

If really concerned about loosening apply Loctite 290 after the final bedding down.

Insist on that torque wrench being used. Many mechanics wrongly believe they can ‘feel’ correct tension. They cannot. Personally observed research showed that over half of 300 (tested) experienced mechanics failed to gauge wheel nut tightness by plus or minus 30%. Some were out by up to 50%. Hardly any could repeat settings reliably within plus/minus 15%.

Insist beforehand that that you need the final tightening to be to the vehicle maker’s specifications and by a calibrated torque wrench. Never allow a ‘rattle gun’ to be used for final tightening as there is a very real risk of over serious overtightening. As noted in the main text, this increases the stretch, and may narrow the thread diameter, thus increasing the thread gap.

Ideally, have your own high quality torque wrench and insist on doing the final tightening yourself (I always do this).
This article was originally written and published around 2004. It is updated here (in mid 2012).

The need for shock absorbers on trailers is now more widely recognised - but many makers still believe their products are immune to the more fundamental Laws of Physics. And mechanics seriously overestimate their ability to tighten, correctly and consistently, by 'feel'.

And never, ever, use an anti-seize product for other than the static applications for which it is intended.

Collyn Rivers

Then found this somewhat less mentally demanding piece from John Wickersham.

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ShaunJUK
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Post by ShaunJUK on Tue 14 May 2013, 8:22 pm

I dont know if you are on facebook and saw the picture of my dandy running a bit low...

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So i am now thinking I need new suspension too, I am thinking maybe upgrading to 750kg so what are my options? If I am changing suspension and tyres would i benefit from changing anything else?
Tow Itch
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Post by Tow Itch on Wed 15 May 2013, 12:09 am

Rather than starting with what your options are lets look at what you can't have.

Tyres those tyres have a load index of 69 so the axle is only good for 650kg with those. We want at least 750Kg.

New suspension mounting points. The stub axle and other components move the position of the wheel in relation to the suspension mounting so the mounting point must be moved forward. We have covered the position for standard Indespension 750Kg units.

Save your old unit. There is poor to zero availability for pre 1979 Knott brake parts. £144.00 for two sets of brake shoes. Drums????
Save the bits. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Options

Cheap strip the brakes and get your old backplates and hubs fitted to new stub axles. We have some information not much [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

How much weight do you want? 750Kg, 900kg more?
Ian (Riva) has said that the chassis is good for 750Kg but more? Ask Ian what he thinks it's good for and when a sub frame becomes advisable. Blast this was a thing I was thinking about, need to read off the limit of the coupling, unless you want to replace that.

Why so much weight? You are going to weld up a simple "axle" across the mounting plates with a new position mounting plate. If the torch and the steel is coming out how more expensive is a subframe?
Dandys were for a brief period fitted with frames for roof boxes and bikes but Ian got iffy about overloading. So much more is possible with 750Kg or 900Kg

Larger wheels: The standard 10" tyres won't support 750kg. You can get reinforced, 6ply or 8ply tyres but as you will be pushing a heavier weight a larger wheel will ride over the grass and especially the ruts of the site easier, so it will make the trailer easier to push.
Larger wheels normally have a greater load index without buying specialist tyres.
depending on the raise 12", 13" or bigger is possible.

Different axles larger brakes and bigger studs are possible. 160mm brakes are getting to the limit at 750Kg but are fitted to some 900Kg units. 203mm brakes are more common.
You have seen the low torque of 3/8ths studs. You might be going to larger wheels get the cheapest or most expedient PCD and stud size for the wheels.

What axle do you want? Indespension, Peak, Avonride, Alko, BPW or Meredith and Eyre and that list was formed in less than 5 minutes. Some already have a load bearing strut or "axle" for across the frame. It might be easier to deal with a relatively local supplier like Indespension, Peak or Meredith and Eyre but the options are yours.

Cut the axle of and stick everything onto a cropped car trailer so you have a toy hauler for your motorcycle, quad bike or track car.
Hardest part of this exercise is the flack from the misses!

It's all as easy or as complex as you want.



ShaunJUK
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Post by ShaunJUK on Wed 15 May 2013, 5:36 pm

My thoughts were that if I am changing them then I might aswell upgrade, I am now however thinking just replace like for like?
Helen
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Post by Helen on Wed 15 May 2013, 6:12 pm

ShaunJUK wrote:My thoughts were that if I am changing them then I might aswell upgrade, I am now however thinking just replace like for like?

We went like for like because it was the most straightforward option with our recessed wheels and proved to be fairly simple. Twisted Evil
ShaunJUK
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Post by ShaunJUK on Wed 15 May 2013, 7:47 pm

Helen wrote:
ShaunJUK wrote:My thoughts were that if I am changing them then I might aswell upgrade, I am now however thinking just replace like for like?

We went like for like because it was the most straightforward option with our recessed wheels and proved to be fairly simple. Twisted Evil

I like straightforward. So am I looking for anything special or just any 500kg suspension unit?
Helen
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Post by Helen on Wed 15 May 2013, 7:55 pm

I ordered mine from indespension.com, telephone 0845 3 720 720. John's at work at the moment but I will see if he can dig out the part no's tomorrow for you Shaun
jake001
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Post by jake001 on Thu 16 May 2013, 12:04 am

I would hate to disagree with our technical expert, but I think that you will find that the load rating is per wheel not per axle. How would you rate a 3 wheeler Question
Helen
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Post by Helen on Thu 16 May 2013, 9:20 am

Helen wrote:I ordered mine from indespension.com, telephone 0845 3 720 720. John's at work at the moment but I will see if he can dig out the part no's tomorrow for you Shaun


The part number is ISSU025.... this is the 500KG braked suspension units.

The fixing plates can also be used as spacers to gain a little height ..... part number SU028, they're about 4to5 mm thick. We didn't use them as we gained enough height with the new suspension units alone, we did get some as we expected to have to use them but up to now the suspension hasn't lost much on settlement so we never felt the need to put them on even at a later date. Several have now been incorporated into the new metal frame of the carport lol!

Tow Itch
Tow Itch
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Post by Tow Itch on Fri 17 May 2013, 4:25 pm

Shaun

You did ask for options so I threw everyone I could think of at you. I can be a knob on that front (and others) don't be overawed, if you want 500Kg suspension that is fine but 750Kg does have a lot going for it. I think we all might get a bit close to 500kg though to be honest I've never weighed my Dandy. With 750Kg you do get the option of sorting a "roof rack" for the Dandy as well.
So after just throwing ideas at you here is how people did it:
This thread goes on a bit but includes Bilbo's pictorial record of raising the suspension is here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Also increasing the suspension to 750Kg requires is moving the mountings slightly forward. It explains it here but ignore the numbers as his maths is wrong [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
John's photos of his suspension project is in the Yahoo group. Join if you have not already done so. As it's a Yahoo group I can't link so I've copied a few of the photos. These photos are John's copyright. I have reproduced them as John is a member I believe he would OK there use.

Original suspension. "Mini" wheels on a 90's Delta?????

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Tacking the cross member to the upper plate.

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Old school arc welding. Everything is thick enough not to need a MIG.

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Puzzled at this. John and I did discuss an offset on the plates to allow for the fact that the 750Kg suspension is longer but all I can see here is an offset inwards. Maybe he didn't bother as he didn't have internal wheel arches and was putting on new arches? Must discuss next time John is about.

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Suspension mounted.

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Finished project.

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Tow Itch
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Post by Tow Itch on Fri 17 May 2013, 6:07 pm

jake001 wrote:I would hate to disagree with our technical expert, but I think that you will find that the load rating is per wheel not per axle. How would you rate a 3 wheeler Question

Jake I'm going to have a bit of a rant at you but it's not got anything to do with tyres.
I would hate to disagree with our technical expert
1) The title is Technical Researcher I'm nobodys expert.
2) I'm sure it's only a tongue in cheek term but this has hit on something I'm really keen on. I would be heartbroken if this forum ever became the sort of place where who said something was more important than what they said. I've seen forums where that happens and if they don't collapse quickly then the people left are just stupid in all senses of the term.
I firmly believe that if I write something that is wrong and you correct me then not only does the forum gain but I gain. I have learnt not only a fact but I've learnt something I missunderstood.
I can have a sense of humour failure if people are being [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but beyond that I hope I have enough sense to value the input from anyone.

I had a bit of a preach the other day about people playing nicely on the forum, this is my other pet thing. Hopefully no more preaching on the forum from me. I'll save the preaching for the daytime job that you all now know about after I was outed by peridot the other day.


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Back To Tyres.

jake001 wrote:I would hate to disagree with our technical expert, but I think that you will find that the load rating is per wheel not per axle. How would you rate a 3 wheeler Question

The tyre load index or rating is indeed per tyre [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but when I referred to an ale limit of 650Kg
Tyres those tyres have a load index of 69 so the axle is only good for 650kg with those. We want at least 750Kg
I'd taken the tyre load index of 69 looked at the mass it relates to 325Kg and doubled it to 650Kg to get the limit of the tyres for the axle or trailer.

N.B. Though it is open to inaccuracies if you are stopped by VOSA for a suspected weight related offence you will be weighed by individual axles. I can attest to the inaccuracy of weighing by axle as my first job was as a weighbridge clerk for the NCB.


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