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Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

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Tow Itch
Tow Itch
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Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by Tow Itch on Mon 29 Apr 2013, 11:32 pm

I'm looking for someone having written about distributing the load in a Dandy.

It quoted something about the weight of the item and some maths about how the positioning of the load affected the snake recovery?

If you posted this or if you have just seen it could you please copy the post or attach a link.

I had a road to Damascus moment but now don't know if I've imagined the post?
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navver

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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by navver on Mon 29 Apr 2013, 11:36 pm

possibly [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Tow Itch
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 30 Apr 2013, 6:44 pm

navver wrote:possibly [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Another post never made and accidentally erased after preview. Thought I'd replied to this last night.

No I've been through that thread but the post was read within the last day or so, thought the post was in the style of Peridot or you so went through your posts.

I'm now fearing that this was a general caravanning post so if no one remembers the post from here I need to work out what site I was looking at.

peridot
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by peridot on Tue 30 Apr 2013, 7:40 pm


The only thread that came to mind was the one navver linked to.

I regularly have the same problem when I find something interesting and want to come back to it - can't remember where the hell it was Mad

Phoenix
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by Phoenix on Tue 30 Apr 2013, 7:49 pm

Was it this Mr Itch?

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Tow Itch
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 30 Apr 2013, 8:58 pm

Thanks alas not. I thought it was something written in the last few days. Then again if I read it elsewhere why would I know when it was written?
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sunflowergs

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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by sunflowergs on Wed 01 May 2013, 8:06 am

Having loaded the dandy at the weekend with bedding,kitchen utensils,awning and poles,2 folding tables and 4 folding chairs i don't think i could of got much more on without resorting to the ridiculous. But generally speaking if heavy items are loaded over the axle snakeing should not become an issue should it? I don't tow over 55mph think this helps too.
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by Helen on Wed 01 May 2013, 11:25 am

We've never had a snaking problem in the 11 years we've had our Dandy and you've seen how much I used to take with me lol! and we didn't really think about how we were loading.

I'd also advise that the weight goes over the axle especially with the larger Destiny's. I reckon snaking is more likely the longer the unit ...... the axle on smaller Dandy's isn't that far off the front or back end of the trailer for any serious uneven distribution of weight .... I could be wrong though. With the caravan we are far more conscious of weight distribution and put most weight over the axle.
Tow Itch
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by Tow Itch on Wed 01 May 2013, 11:47 am

sunflowergs wrote:Having loaded the dandy at the weekend with bedding,kitchen utensils,awning and poles,2 folding tables and 4 folding chairs i don't think i could of got much more on without resorting to the ridiculous. But generally speaking if heavy items are loaded over the axle snakeing should not become an issue should it? I don't tow over 55mph think this helps too.

There is quite a bit about stability and stabilisers on the site.
My caution would be more about the maximum weight of 500Kg.
The rear entry Dandys are extremely stable due to the geometry with the axle being approximately 2/3rds the way back.
Try reading:
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In short I'd be amazed if you can get any misbehaviour out of a Discovery while towing. Mike had one moment with his 6 and another user who I know had a pretty desperate death dance over every lane of a motorway with a Highside Destiny.
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by mike on Wed 01 May 2013, 2:28 pm

sunflowergs wrote:Having loaded the dandy at the weekend with bedding,kitchen utensils,awning and poles,2 folding tables and 4 folding chairs i don't think i could of got much more on without resorting to the ridiculous. But generally speaking if heavy items are loaded over the axle snakeing should not become an issue should it? I don't tow over 55mph think this helps too.

You should not see any sign of snaking,as i have said before a stabiliser is not to stop snaking as you drive along its for that one occasion when something goes wrong,it may never happen and with the rear entry dandy is unlikely to happen but i cant guarantee that so i never say you dont need a stabiliser.
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navver

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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by navver on Wed 01 May 2013, 2:48 pm

Mike towas a six with a Punto. That is probably fairly near the limit.
I tow a designer with a Mondeo and would be amazed if it caused a problem.
However it depends as much on the driver as anything else.

If you have a small car in relation to the trailer you need to be more careful, with a big car you will be more stable.

This means you need to:

Leave a bigger gap from the car in front.
Anticipate more and brake earlier.
Slow down when going down hill.

The recommendation is that the loaded trailer (max weight) should not weigh more than 85% of the kerb weight of the car but there are many more factors than this. They say experienced drivers may go up to 100%. But what is an experienced driver?
Dandys with short trailer, weight low down, no wind resistance are all good points.







Tow Itch
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by Tow Itch on Wed 01 May 2013, 6:22 pm

navver wrote:Mike towas a six with a Punto. That is probably fairly near the limit.
I tow a designer with a Mondeo and would be amazed if it caused a problem.
However it depends as much on the driver as anything else.

If you have a small car in relation to the trailer you need to be more careful, with a big car you will be more stable.

This means you need to:

Leave a bigger gap from the car in front.
Anticipate more and brake earlier.
Slow down when going down hill.

The recommendation is that the loaded trailer (max weight) should not weigh more than 85% of the kerb weight of the car but there are many more factors than this. They say experienced drivers may go up to 100%. But what is an experienced driver?
Dandys with short trailer, weight low down, no wind resistance are all good points.

They say experienced drivers may go up to 100%.
Some "They's" do indeed say this however you may legally tow the difference between the Maximum Authorised Mass and the Gross Vehicle train weight or an even greater weight of trailer if the towing limit for the trailer is calculated when the towing vehicle is not fully loaded.
Both these may be well in excess of 100%



Abstract

Previous work on car-trailer stability has been largely limited to theoretical studies with some reference to practical experience or accident statistics. In this study, extensive and systematic experimental investigations were carried out oil a combined car-adjustable-trailer system. The influence of different trailer parameters on the system high-speed stability was examined by changing the mass, dimensions, and inertial characteristics of a fully adjustable trailer. It was found that the dominant factors affecting stability were the trailer yaw inertia, nose mass (mass distribution), and trailer axle position. The tyre pressure also affects the stability, although this effect is less significant. It is interesting to see that the trailer mass alone does not dramatically affect the high-speed stability, as this runs contrary to current guidelines relating to limits on the relative mass of the car and trailer. Experimental tests on a friction stabilizer and on car electronic stability programs demonstrate that both of these improve the high-speed stability and help to delay the onset of 'snaking'. Author Dr J Darling


According to the head of Bath University's group looking at caravan stability the mass of the caravan doesn't affect its desire to be stable or unstable. So the relationship of the relative mass of the trailer and towing vehicle is not important.
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navver

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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by navver on Wed 01 May 2013, 7:43 pm

The yaw inertia will be higher with a heavy trailer and with a longer trailer.
The nose weight distribution will require a noseweight higher than the towing vehicle can tolerate with a heavier trailer.
Trailer axle position will affect noseweight.

So these things are measurable factors which affect whether a snake will occur or not but they are closely related to the weight and length of the trailer relative to the towing vehicle. So with a heavy long trailer there will be more of these factors. Both factors are very closely related to the loading and resulting weight distribution of the trailer.

A heavy car will be able to withstand more yaw inertia, nose weight and hence greater axle distance and a long heavy trailer will produce more of it.
Tow Itch
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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by Tow Itch on Mon 06 May 2013, 11:56 pm


Think I misread or misunderstood a part of the above.

According to the head of Bath University's group looking at caravan stability the mass of the caravan doesn't affect its desire to be stable or unstable. So the relationship of the relative mass of the trailer and towing vehicle is not important.

I'll hold with the mass not affecting the desire of a trailer to be stable or unstable as that is what they said.

I think I need to cancel the statement about the relative mass of the trailer and towing vehicle being unimportant. The trailer will behave in the way that it's own dynamics determine but the affect on the towing vehicle will be affected by their relative masses.


navver wrote:The yaw inertia will be higher with a heavy trailer and with a longer trailer.
The nose weight distribution will require a noseweight higher than the towing vehicle can tolerate with a heavier trailer.
Trailer axle position will affect noseweight.

So these things are measurable factors which affect whether a snake will occur or not but they are closely related to the weight and length of the trailer relative to the towing vehicle. So with a heavy long trailer there will be more of these factors. Both factors are very closely related to the loading and resulting weight distribution of the trailer.

A heavy car will be able to withstand more yaw inertia, nose weight and hence greater axle distance and a long heavy trailer will produce more of it.

"The yaw inertia will be higher with a heavy trailer and with a longer trailer.
The nose weight distribution will require a noseweight higher than the towing vehicle can tolerate with a heavier trailer.
Trailer axle position will affect noseweight."
It might be higher but you can have a high mass contained within a smaller volume. The increased mass could be at or closer to the axle. Old trailers with solid floors tended to be heavy but not as long.
A high mass trailer does not have to have a high noseweight indeed in both the Bath University and Collyn Rivers articles there are several statements about suitable noseweights not being linear to trailer weight.

"A heavy car will be able to withstand more yaw inertia, nose weight and hence greater axle distance and a long heavy trailer will produce more of it."

A heavier and certainly a long towing vehicle could withstand greater forces from a trailer. Though a vehicle with a greater distance from the rear axle to the hitch point will also create more instability because it magnifies any sideways movement of the rear of the car.
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navver

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Re: Can't find what someone wrote. Help?

Post by navver on Tue 07 May 2013, 9:13 am

I think what they are saying is that a long heavy trailer which is well loaded with all the weight over the axle will be more stable than a short light one with all the weight at the ends.

However a short light trailer with average loading will be more stable than a long heavy one with average loading, simply because the yaw inertia, noseweight and axle position will be more favourable.




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