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Wheels (again)

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jake001

Posts : 340
Join date : 2012-03-10
Age : 71
Location : Warrington

Wheels (again)

Post by jake001 on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 11:39 am

I have just read of Sir Henry's problems with wheels and tyres on another forum, basically he had a puncture, couldn't get a replacement and so got 2 mini wheels with good tyres from a breakers. These subsequently fouled on the inner wheel arches pouring forth clouds of smoke. The problem was solved by fitting the wheels reversed, not a good long term solution Exclamation

What puzzled me was that Dandys originally had mini rims fitted and therefore there shouldn't be a problem, as the basic indespension unit is still the same. More research was called for. I just happen to  have a Dandy wheel and an old Mini wheel lying around and so did some measuring. The depth of the mini wheel from inner rim to edge of stud hole was +30 thou difference, hardly likely to cause a problem and probably within normal manufacturing tolerance.
My conclusion is therefore that standard 10" Mini wheels will fit without modification but that doesn't explain S.H.'s experience Shocked


Last edited by jake001 on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : brain failure)
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Tow Itch
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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by Tow Itch on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 10:19 pm

No I wouldn't run wheels the wrong way round for long and to be fair I doubt Sir Henry will. The nut profiles wont be compatible and I might have put the nuts on "back to front" to prevent nut profile damage.

As for a 30 thou difference I think 3/4rs of a mm (Equivalent of 30 thou) is well within the combined manufacturing and measurement errors.
I would be interested in what you found the offset to be. Someone on here measured it at 22 mm and it will be quoted on one of the sites I link to as 25mm. As these wheels were manufactured to imperial measurement I'd expect the 25mm to be 25.4 mm as in 1" and the 22mm to be 7/8ths.

I expect Sir Henrys problems occurred because Mini wheels were produced in a multiplicity of sizes. The original Mini wheels were 3.5" then I think 4" out to 4.5" I gained the information from here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but I was dubious in using the info as I always thought Metro wheels were 100mm PCD. I now gather some were but the early ones were 4".

Now this is not strictly relevant to a question about offsets but it is the best piece I've read on monkeying about on wheels and covers a possibility to allow the use of 100mm PCD wheels. I'd still argue that 4" should be easy enough to find.  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  


Though we are also not going here the end of this lists alternatives for 5.50 X 12 wheels with 4" PCD. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


I'm putting the written links in because the site is still having problems with multiple links if not written out.
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jake001

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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by jake001 on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 10:50 pm

Actual distance from rim to edge of holes was approx 3", which on a 3.5B width gives an offset of 1.25" by my calculations (I'm sure Issigonis measured in Imperial Smile )
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Tow Itch
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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by Tow Itch on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 11:23 pm


3" on 3.50". I'd agree that that is 1.25" but that does sound like a lot. Try searching through these they go beyond 46mm [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Tow Itch
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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by Tow Itch on Mon 05 Aug 2013, 6:42 pm

The obvious thing that I didn't put in my post if I was talking about the possibility of wider wheels is why they might have 145 (or 520) size tyre on. I was looking for Tyre Width Equivalency Tables. Now the British Tyre Manufacturers site doesn't list any tables but I'd not expect otherwise. As I spoke to them last year about age related retirement of tyres "It's The Manufacturers Choice" and bonus loads for tyres on trailers and caravans (Admittedly I'd not heard the term for years) "Never Heard Of It." So you are left with tables on the web. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] most only go down to 5" But I was going to subtract 10mm for every half inch and say 145 would be ideal for 4" and a minimum size for 4.5". I then found this table which goes down to 4.5" and lists 145 as ideal for 4.5" and a minimumsize for 5" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Don't you just love internet guides?
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jake001

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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by jake001 on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 12:16 am

My Mini wheels are in fact marked as +24 which is probably ok, maybe Mr Issigonis did use MKS measurments Shocked
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Tow Itch
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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 12:42 am

jake001 wrote:My Mini wheels are in fact marked as +24 which is probably ok, maybe Mr Issigonis did use MKS measurments Shocked
Offset or ET (in German) is often measured in mm but if marked +24 you are measuring +31.7 or +31.8.
I'm not thinking your measurements were likely to be 12.6/8mm out?

Bring the two spare wheels and we will get the tape measure out after a gallon of cider on Fri or Sat. That should sort everything out. Or maybe not.

navver

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Join date : 2013-01-03

Re: Wheels (again)

Post by navver on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 1:49 pm

When I measured mine they are about an inch offset and an original mini wheel I bought from a scrapyard in 1980 was about the same. It does fit perfectly. So +24 sounds right.

Odd and very frustrating how we just cannot go all metric or imperial. Being involved in building design since 1970, I have lived with this mess ever since. Ceiling tiles were 600mm metric or 610mm imperial. Buyn recessed lights to suit, it did matter. Doors are still imperial converted to metric. The kids always ask me what every metric dimension is in inches please. Even they cannot cope with it.

The fishermen are as bad, 1-3/4 ib test curve rod, fishing at 11m in 6foot depth using 2lb mainline with 0.06mm hooklength, etc etc. When will this madness end.

I went to college in two hits with 1year between. The first lot was all imperial units cycles per second etc. The second lot were all metric using Hertz etc instead. First lot using valves, second lot using transistors. Grrrrrrrrr.......
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jake001

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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by jake001 on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 4:28 pm

Tow Itch wrote:
jake001 wrote:My Mini wheels are in fact marked as +24 which is probably ok, maybe Mr Issigonis did use MKS measurments Shocked
Offset or ET (in German) is often measured in mm but if marked +24 you are measuring +31.7 or +31.8.
I'm not thinking your measurements were likely to be 12.6/8mm out?

Bring the two spare wheels and we will get the tape measure out after a gallon of cider on Fri or Sat. That should sort everything out. Or maybe not.

I think that actually my measurements whilst accurate (digital caliper in depth gauge mode) were wrong. scratch  I measured from the actual rim but the proper measurement is from the shoulder just inside the rim where the tyre bead sits (see your previous ref  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])
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Tow Itch
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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 5:25 pm

jake001 wrote:
Tow Itch wrote:
jake001 wrote:My Mini wheels are in fact marked as +24 which is probably ok, maybe Mr Issigonis did use MKS measurments Shocked
Offset or ET (in German) is often measured in mm but if marked +24 you are measuring +31.7 or +31.8.
I'm not thinking your measurements were likely to be 12.6/8mm out?

Bring the two spare wheels and we will get the tape measure out after a gallon of cider on Fri or Sat. That should sort everything out. Or maybe not.

I think that actually my measurements whilst accurate (digital caliper in depth gauge mode) were wrong. scratch  I measured from the actual rim but the proper measurement is from the shoulder just inside the rim where the tyre bead sits (see your previous ref  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])

Well in their illustration they are not using j section rims. However isn't it immaterial? Measuring to the outside might be erroneous if we were measuring the width of the wheel say a 3.5" wheel so should be 88.9mm but we measure an additional 12mm because of 2 X 6mm j sections and measure 100.9mm
If this wheel has a 1" offset we measure on one side 0.75" = 19.05mm plus the erroneous 6mm = 25.05mm the other side is 2.75" = 69.85mm plus the 6mm error = 75.85mm  
75.85 + 25.05 = 100.9mm so we have erroneously measured the wheels width as 3 31/32nds"
75.85mm - 25.05mm = 50.8mm which we then divide by 2 to get 25.4mm = 1"  


Sorry Jake I'm not taking the rip putting by all the figures in place I'm sure you could see it in your head. It's just so everyone who doesn't do much maths gets to see how it works.
When I put the figures in I went to subtract 19.05mm not 25.05mm and couldn't work out why I had gone wrong. So I suppose it's good to use the figures sometimes.

So back to the drawing board over where the error came in if you are assuming 24mm or 25.4mm to be right. You got 31.8mm so we have an 6.4mm to 7.8mm and as we half the difference we should be looking for a measured error of 12.8mm to 15.6mm.
If you measured to different sides of the flange face we would be out by the thickness of the metal divided by 2 so only 1.5mm to 2mm I'd guess.
Did you guess or take the wheel being 3.5 inch as a given? If so and the j was more like 1/2 an inch rather than 6mm then we have our error.
Or do you think it's elsewhere?
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jake001

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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by jake001 on Tue 06 Aug 2013, 8:17 pm

Original measurement from rim to inner face of mounting hole 2.929". Assume rim width 3.5" centreline 1.75" offset +1.179"/ 30mm subtract 6mm thickness of straightedge laid across inner curved section just below rim to facilitate measurement 24mm cheers 
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Tow Itch
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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by Tow Itch on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 11:16 am

Jake remind me on this I can't remember if we got 24mm or 1" on measuring the offset.
What interests me is that when we measured the width of the wheel if we measured from the inside of where the wheel sits 3 or as close as we could. The outside edge of the metal we only ended up with a 3" width rim. We would have had to add on the J profile to make 3.5" inch.
Sorry we should have written this down at the time but I want a note for when in a few months what the actual width is, and do we think the guide we were reading might have an incorrect definition of width?  

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Last edited by Tow Itch on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : missed a d out of width)
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jake001

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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by jake001 on Tue 03 Sep 2013, 12:40 pm

Just checked, shoulder to front face approx 20mm, shoulder to rear face approx 70 mm, total 90mm or 3.5 inches. don't know how we got 3 last time Shocked 
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Retro

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Join date : 2013-09-05

Re: Wheels (again)

Post by Retro on Fri 06 Sep 2013, 4:03 pm

Interesting topic. I'm new to this forum but not new to the Dandy marque. We have owned a rather well worn model of uncertain vintage for probably ten years now.

While returning from a trip to Wales last week, we lost one of the original alloy hub caps and a bearing cap too. Unfortunately, we didn't see it go so have no idea where it went. I originally intended to try and get a period replacement but while rooting around amongst my piles of bits, I came across a couple of equally period 10" Cosmic alloy wheels. I showed them to Mrs Retro and she responded "Ooooh, they are nice" so now I have the job of making them fit. The offset looks like standard Mini so, despite a wider section, they shouldn't foul the sides of the Dandy. I'll post a pic (or a link to a pic) when, and if, I get them on.

Carlos Fandango eat your heart out. Laughing


Last edited by Retro on Fri 06 Sep 2013, 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Helen
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Re: Wheels (again)

Post by Helen on Fri 06 Sep 2013, 4:08 pm

Hi and welcome to the Dandy Campers, looking forward to seeing the pics when you've fitted them ...... hello Mrs Retro too  

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Re: Wheels (again)

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