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new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

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vaughny

Posts : 10
Join date : 2014-05-13

new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by vaughny on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 7:52 pm

hi all, I have picked up my new dandy, the top seems in good nick but underneath there is some rust. here she is:

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and down:

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anyhoo, back to the rust.
some pics, front:
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and the driver side wheel (front):
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I'm a bit worried as we are due to take her to glastonbury next week..
I can get her in for someone to give me a quote tomorrow but I'd like to gauge opinion from those who know. its basically the front bar (horizontal to the tow hitch) and the back bar under the number plate, but this isnt quite as bad. I will get them sorted but was wondering how urgent they were?

Thanks,

Vaughny
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Helen
Dandy Owner

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Join date : 2011-06-12

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by Helen on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 9:34 pm

If you were local my hubby would have come and had a look to see it himself, as it is we can only look at the pictures and although some rust can look worse than it really is and may just need a good rub down ........ that last picture doesn't inspire confidence  Smile  obviously the rust is quite bad as there is a hole there, another thing is and it may just be the camera angle but that wheel looks pretty tight up to the Dandy. I'm sure someone with more techie knowledge than me will come along soon and offer some firm advice.
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Caz1960

Posts : 1716
Join date : 2011-09-04
Age : 57
Location : Cardigan west wales

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by Caz1960 on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 11:43 pm

 she looks great but i agree with Helen the first picture of the rust could do with a wire brushing looks crusty but the one with the wheel on both ends of the bar is through and the wheel sits very close to the box with a bigger gap to the wheel arch is it like this on both sides?? may need the wheel moved out abit ??
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Tow Itch
Dandy Expert

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Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Leigh Gtr Manchester

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by Tow Itch on Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:23 am

The unfortunate thing is that the steel tubes are of a very thin section so it's also fun to weld too.
The positive thing is that it is a full frame so stresses are transferred and not dependent on one tube.
The only way that the wheel would be badly aligned to the body would be if the trailing arm of the suspension had failed and the wheel cambers in at the top. How is the tread on the inside of the tyre?

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Phoenix
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Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by Phoenix on Wed 18 Jun 2014, 10:36 am

The bit in front of the wheel, if someone is good with a welder may be repairable but it isn't going to be easy. The rails on ours to give you an idea are only 1/16th inch wall.

If you look closely guys the front rail is totally shot. The white dots you can see are the back ends of the pop rivets holding the floor down and in the other pic holding the trim on. They are the internal angles of the chassis you can see, not the external ones.

It may be possible to get a new one in with out dismantling, but not easy. From experience we would say the ends of the side rails will probably be on the way out too.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear. It is do able but you may be pushed to get it done in a week.

If you do try to weld it up with out dismantling have someone standing by with a bucket of water. It will get very hot and scorch/set fire to the wood work.

vaughny

Posts : 10
Join date : 2014-05-13

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by vaughny on Wed 18 Jun 2014, 12:52 pm

yep, totally shot..thanks all, been to see a chap who thinks its possible by removing the bed arm brackets front and back, slotting a new piece of box section in and welding it all up again. the quote was more than we paid for it but if that's all that's wrong with it then its not too bad.
think the plan is to take it next week, see how we get on and if the wife likes it we'll get it sorted. hopefully it will hold together.
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Tow Itch
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Location : Leigh Gtr Manchester

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by Tow Itch on Wed 18 Jun 2014, 2:06 pm

Before you get the welding done.
Hopefully it's just a deceptive camera angle or similar but if there are problems with the suspension then that would be grim.
Put the main part of the tub on axle stands or chocks and look at the suspension units.
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Bugger they are using a stock photo.
The trailing arm isn't like in the photo that is as per 750Kg suspension and larger it is like the diagram it is made from a length of square section tube.
Over time the tube corrodes then twists when it is no longer capable of resisting the suspension loads.
The giveaway is the tyre loses tread on the inside. If the trailer has been laid up for a long while and it's new movement there the linkage fails there might be no indication from the tyres. Likewise if a naughty person fitted part worn tyres to disguise the fact.

This is really easy if you already know what I'm talking about but difficult if you don't.
Hold a straight edge along the trailing linkage we are not measuring straightness like this.



What we are checking for is twist or winding. This is shown on the first of these illustrations about wood.

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The linkage may have been twisted so that the stub axle has been twisted anti clockwise on the nearside and clockwise on the offside wheel if you were to look from the front of the Dandy.
Unfortunately the trailing arm is very narrow and an odd spot of rust would tend to corrupt the reading if you laid two straight edges as in the picture.
We can however lay the straight edges along the length of the arm one along the edge nearest the stub axle (outside edge) one along the inside edge.
What you are looking for or what you are hoping is not there is that the outside edge is higher than the inside edge at the bottom (stub axle) end and lower at the top or the fixed end.
Four hands are probably needed to do this so having someone hold the straight edges in place while you look from a point a couple of feet to the side of the Dandy.
If by luck you can see what I'm saying great if not say so I'll try again.
A good quality steel rule is a suitable straight edge.

I realise this is not what you want to read but if both the chassis and the suspension are poorly you may choose to look at other options.

hannah3dog

Posts : 75
Join date : 2012-07-26

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by hannah3dog on Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:45 am

Wrong wheels tyres? - see thread tyres wheels for old yellow Dandy - may help

Has anybody costed a replacement chassis - I've started drawing one out to get a quote out of interest - I can't see it costing that much and it could be galvanised. Or you could build a skeleton chassis under the original to support it?

vaughny

Posts : 10
Join date : 2014-05-13

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by vaughny on Thu 19 Jun 2014, 11:22 am

Thanks, will check. The chap said he used mini tyres. Struggling to upload pics on my phone but they seem in good condition, had a look at the axles and cant obviously see anything too sinister.

hannah3dog

Posts : 75
Join date : 2012-07-26

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by hannah3dog on Thu 19 Jun 2014, 11:31 am

I thought all mini wheels were the same - they aren't and have different offsets. I had the same clearance problems with mine solved with spacers bought off ebay. (If you were really naughty you could put bid washers behind the wheel nuts but not very safe). Beware when you put spacers in you may need new longer wheel bolts which will need bashing in - not a big problem with a big hammer and a nut protecting the thread when you bash it
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Caz1960

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Age : 57
Location : Cardigan west wales

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by Caz1960 on Fri 20 Jun 2014, 12:15 am

Phoenix wrote:The bit in front of the wheel, if someone is good with a welder may be repairable but it isn't going to be easy. The rails on ours to give you an idea are only 1/16th inch wall.

If you look closely guys the front rail is totally shot. The white dots you can see are the back ends of the pop rivets holding the floor down and in the other pic holding the trim on. They are the internal angles of the chassis you can see, not the external ones.

It may be possible to get a new one in with out dismantling, but not easy. From experience we would say the ends of the side rails will probably be on the way out too.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear. It is do able but you may be pushed to get it done in a week.

If you do try to weld it up with out dismantling have someone standing by with a bucket of water. It will get very hot and scorch/set fire to the wood work.


     eye's of a hawk I didn't see that until you pointed it out then it is obvious   think another trip to specsavers if I can find them     
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Tow Itch
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Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by Tow Itch on Fri 20 Jun 2014, 2:20 am

If there is no problem that is fine. There is not much we could actually perceive from that photo. I was just concerned that you might end up paying for welding then need new suspension. If that had of been the case then unless there was a desire for a renovation project the best option may have been scrapping then buying something else. Glad there is no problem beyond the welding.

Hannah

It's not just the offsets although I'm still uncertain if we measured this as 24mm or 1" (25.4mm) See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The initial Mini wheel was 3.5" but there are also 4" and 4.5" Mini wheels. Pitty I don't read all that I provide links to. I see that 1960s standard wheels had an offset of 29mm whereas 1970s had 24mm though that 5mm difference shouldn't be critical it would be noticed.
Mini 10" wheel options [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Interesting wheel and tyre combinations. 1st shows 25mm offset 2nd seller shows a 23mm offset on Mini wheels but also sells 145x10 tyres on 5.5" wheels, illustrating the range of tyre widths it will fit.  
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I thought all mini wheels were the same - they aren't and have different offsets. I had the same clearance problems with mine solved with spacers bought off ebay. (If you were really naughty you could put bid washers behind the wheel nuts but not very safe).

Looking at the above I can see that if the spacer is just allowing for the right sized wheel and tyre but with too big an offset then the forces on the hub wont be any greater.
The non math side of my head does get the willies about using spacers as the studs are only 3/8ths and are very susceptible to failure. I tend to think a few wheels that have been lost have been post tyre fitting and it's windy guns being used rather than the nuts being torqued to 42lb Ft

The use of washers would be very naughty I think. The wheel is attached by the frictional force between the back of the wheel and the hub. there is no scissor like force on the studs. See the top of this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Now while theoretically the coefficient of friction "μ" is not dependant on surface area [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I'd not want to change the amount of surface in contact nor and perhaps more concerning add multiple plates (The washers) that could slide on each other.

Sorry Hanna if I've not read deeply enough into your posts or thought about what your problem is. Just read some of your posts again. I was side tracked by your mention of angle iron (OK angle aluminium) which in fact is only a few mm.

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The measurements you give are taken from the tyres not the measurements of the wheel. See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Though if I read your posts correctly.


hannah3dog wrote:Hi Retro yours sound to me as if they're trailer wheels with no offset. I did the following measurements with 145 R10 tyres. Put a straight edge from fattest part of tyre to fattest part of tyre and measure to flange.  

Mini Wheel 1  23mm offset inside 41mm outside 90mm  (Just rubs because I added angle which is why no good to me)
Mini Wheel 2  30mm offset inside 35mm outside 87mm  (No good at all fouls chassis)
Std Trailer Wheel  0mm offset inside 67 outside 67 (Gives 30mm clearance)

Its all a bit confusing. Yours will probably take standard mini wheels 23mm offset which will move them inboard and were the wheels (as I understand it talking to Ian at Riva) originally fitted. But beware I got some with 30mm offset which won't fit!!

If the trailers handy just put a straight edge across the tyre and measure into the outer face of the flange. Its all very confusing!

I'm reading that you have three wheels that have tyres mounted where the width is 122mm, 131mm and 134mm. 12mm in difference is one wheel 1/22" narrower than the oter two or is that amount of variation reasonable on the same rims?
You say one is 23mm (Is this marked?) but the inside measurement is 41mm and the outside is 90mm.
90 - 41 = 49 divide by two is 24.5 so that is within tolerances of measurement but if the outside is 90mm you have a negative offset so I'm left to wonder if you had a wide wheel because I don't see how you could have fouling with a negative offset.

An original 3.5" wheel has a centre at 1.75 inches or 38mm but if the centre is offset by 23mm it's 61mm to the inside edge.
If you had a 5" wheel it's centre is at 2.5 inches or 63.5mm and you have a negative offset of 23mm so it's only 40.5mm to the inside edge.

I'm sure you would have spotted if you had thunderous 7"" wheels on. My earlier thought was that you had something like the Dunlop LP 882 wheels with a 47mm offset which would make everything fit or more correctly not fit perfectly. Alas it also doesn't match the offsets you have read on the wheels and the wheel in your picture that is deeply dished is at least a neutral offset if not a negative offset.

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It has now just come to me. look again at my line of maths for showing the inside edge of the wheel.


hannah3dog wrote:Hi Retro - well I'm completely baffled as your Dandy 4 looks the same as mine and those wheels in the pictures look like mini wheels.

I've added a 1.5mm thick angle to the bottom to tidy it up which reduces the clearance and on one side a 23mm offset min wheel rotates (just) but on the other it (just) catches the chassis. There is no way I have 1.5" clearance! Without the angle they would both rotate with say 5mm clearance

My drum faces are 40mm from the chassis - I'm wondering what yours are. I think judging by the age mine are the original running units

I did think about putting in spacers but they will need longer wheel bolts and I'd have to disassemble the hubs and disturb the (new) grease seals. Also I'm nervous about getting the wheel bolts out of the brake drums. Its a pity as I already have mini wheels on a boat trailer

Hence my query about 500 tyres - they don't need to be much narrower than the 145. They work as is but narrower would be better

If the standard wheel depth is 61mm I think we can guess at something more than 40mm

A bad day at Dandy but they then fitted different wheels or someone fitting new units or welding up in the wrong place after repair? Are the suspension units welded on as per the early suspension or bolted on? If bolted check the position of the bolt holes against what they should be. It could be an odd set of suspension units.

This is more of a reply to you than the OP I'll tie it up with your older thread after a few days.

hannah3dog

Posts : 75
Join date : 2012-07-26

Re: new dandy...bit of a rusty undercarriage..

Post by hannah3dog on Fri 20 Jun 2014, 10:19 am

Hi Tow Itch

I spent ages scratching my head as at the end of the day I had loads of "mini" wheels and tyres off freecycle and a boat trailer I have + the 145 R10 that came with the Dandy. I got baffled measuring everything up and at the end of the day I just got a matched pair (Mini) that I thought were suitable and made sure I have a spare the same, got new tyres on them and then offered them up, measured the gap and bought suitable spacers and bolts off ebay to give me a gap! It was a pragmatic solution without resorting to technical info. It seems to work fine - 300+ miles so far and another 250 this weekend hopefully.

Re your worries about bolts shearing the spacers are designed for the front drive and steering wheels on Mini's. I think your probably right that they can be inclined to shear off on souped up minis with over enthusiastic boy racers tearing around and probably torqueing them in oblivion. A classic mini weighs around 750Kg my Dandy 350Kg but there's no drive on the Dandy wheels. My garage said they'd be fine - I did mention your concerns to them - and so far so good. They do look fine

I think the problem is that with an old Dandy nothing can be considered "original" and nothing can be guaranteed to fit. I'm not even convinced they were all built the same way! The washer plan was tongue in cheek but does let you try the wheel in place and measure for the spacers. Sir Henry had a similar problem and also used spacers (after reversing his wheels!) Years ago I had wheel nuts come loose on a Morris 1000 so it does happen - washers are NOT a good idea on the road

All the best

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