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Gas Struts On Beds

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vessey44

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Age : 33
Location : Scunthorpe,North Lincolnshire

Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by vessey44 on Fri 30 Mar 2012, 10:23 pm

Can you guess what it is yet

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Nick
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Nick on Fri 30 Mar 2012, 10:26 pm

no idea give us a clue Very Happy
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Helen
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Helen on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 8:10 am

Are they brackets for fitting gas struts ? perhaps not there should be four of them scratch
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mike
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by mike on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 8:50 am

vessey44 wrote:Can you guess what it is yet

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They are reinforcing brackets for his wallet lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
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vessey44

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Age : 33
Location : Scunthorpe,North Lincolnshire

Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by vessey44 on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 9:48 am

Im still in the prototype stage there is four but dont want to get your hopes up just yet
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Nick
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Nick on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 3:53 pm

Kevin i forgot to say yes our struts have the gas tube at the bottom so as you say it may limit the lubrication of the rod,i think most struts fitted to car hatches also have the gas tube at the bottom.
Could this be to stop any lubrication from seeping out over time?
However [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] would suggest otherwise


Last edited by NickB on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vessey44

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Location : Scunthorpe,North Lincolnshire

Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by vessey44 on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 3:56 pm

My tailgate ones on my T5 and caddy have the tube at the top & rod at the bottom
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Nick
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Nick on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 4:02 pm

vessey44 wrote:My tailgate ones on my T5 and caddy have the tube at the top & rod at the bottom

expect our cars have as well i suppose i could check.Looks like another fine mess Riva have got me into,i might swap them round so tube is at the top Very Happy
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Tow Itch
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Tow Itch on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 4:15 pm

NickB wrote:Kevin i forgot to say yes our struts have the gas tube at the bottom so as you say it may limit the lubrication of the rod,i think most struts fitted to car hatches also have the gas tube at the bottom.
Could this be to stop any lubrication from seeping out over time?

All I can think is that they are at the bottom when you open up but are at the top when the tailgate is closed where they spend the majority of their time. If it's the other way round I have no idea but tube to the top is what is recommended.

Mr Vessey

Impressed at the brackets what bit are they for?

What are you planning for the bed end? The company I finally spoke to didn't have the nicest looking brackets for that end.

In fact I thought I'd already PM'd you with a view combining the spacer required for that end with a bracket to accept the threaded ball type end. My apologies, no point waiting for communication if you haven't sent the message in the first place.

What I was looking at was a 11/2" to 2" length of aluminium square bar drilled for bolts and drilled and tapped for the threaded strut end. Drilling and tapping seemed less work than the original idea (see Yahho group) of welding nuts onto square steel tube. Don't know what size for the square bar yet as I've not looked at the offset required.
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vessey44

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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by vessey44 on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 5:13 pm

Tow itch,I rarely come on the forum depends what im working on that week and what information i need

These brackets are for the bottom & ill have some made for the top when i know exactly what i need...Im looking at max strength from a small bracket but as neat as possible

I could achieve this by using a sandwich plate design
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Tow Itch
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Tow Itch on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 6:42 pm

Sandwich plate design? Not a term I've heard.
Not just this sort of shape is it? _|-|_
Why a bracket for the base as the companies supply balls on brackets?
Or are you looking at scrapyard supplies for struts and welding the threaded ball ends to your own brackets?
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Nick
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Nick on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 7:19 pm

This is for Kevin some strut Porn Very Happy

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vessey44

Posts : 202
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Location : Scunthorpe,North Lincolnshire

Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by vessey44 on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 9:41 pm

I'll use a rivnut & a ball joint but wanted a strong bracket to support it all...
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vessey44

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Location : Scunthorpe,North Lincolnshire

Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by vessey44 on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 9:48 pm

Nick are they original dandy struts. Could you email the part no. & tel. Number off them so I can source some more please

My strut project will take years to complete as I keep changing from one project to the other...currently it's between the camper & my silver VW van

Just waiting for my Propex heater mounting box to come back then it's time for blown air dandy heating and an EHU install
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Nick
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Nick on Sat 31 Mar 2012, 11:33 pm

I will try and find a Strut with a complete label as one in the picture is pretty worn so can only make out some of the part number although the Phone number is visible.
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Tow Itch
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Tow Itch on Sat 31 Aug 2013, 5:26 pm

Graham C wrote:
Tow Itch wrote:So many questions.

After reading the thoughts of all who have gone previously on this:
What positions did you settle on for mounting?
I see the bed bracket is not at the mid point of the frame. the weight of the awning helps keep the folded bed down? You chose asymmetric positioning because.....
Are you needing a catch to keep the extended bed down? If so what design?
Without re reading I can't remember the point of greatest thrust of the strut but it is just before fully closed. You chose to pre extend because....
Nice decorative touch to obtain or spray the struts white. I never think about stuff like that.
Hi Tow Itch
            I read your other stuff about the struts and i think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill all we are after is a bit of help in raising the beds.
i used the the info of the yahoo site but i changed the the spacing a bit as i wanted the struts under a little under compression  when the beds are in the fully up right portion .I did fit the in the asymmetric position as the ones on cars are .Yes i need catches to hold the beds in the open position i have not fitted them yet. Am going to use toddle button ones that will just going to turn onto the brackets that the bed sits on .The struts are fully under load when the beds are open ,
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I read your other stuff about the struts and i think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill all we are after is a bit of help in raising the beds.
 I might have been more generous in my choice of words to describe my own actions but essentially yes. I wanted all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed. My grand plan was to get a significant discount and knock out a kit of struts and brackets. Hence quite a bit of my thoughts went into sourcing factory made brackets not home welded ones as 15 sets of struts would require 120 brackets. If I was in the position of not only saying look you can set up gas struts like this but selling (or negotiating a group purchase of) strut kits I wanted to be dammed certain I was right in what I was doing. Be it any immediate problems or a spate of bed frames cracking 12 months down the line.
I didn't continue with this project as it would have required collecting in or my fronting over £1,000 for a suitable number of struts.
I wasn't happy that any of my questions had been answered.
I'm pants I procrastinate and don't get round to things.


i used the the info of the yahoo site but i changed the the spacing a bit as i wanted the struts under a little under compression  when the beds are in the fully up right portion.
Yes you and everyone else. Steve Mc Vicar (who wrote the piece on the Yahoo group) quoted measuring off 330mm on the bed frame and 170mm down the tub wall. Then you look at the photographs he took of his own unit and see that the that the relative dimensions don't look anything like 330mm across and 170mm down. So everyone changes the dimensions but no one bar John explains why.
My maths is good enough to resolve the forces from the strut at a single point and allow for the varying leverage when the bed anchor point for the strut is moved in or out. I messed up my A level maths though so the calculus required to look at the trend of what happens when you alter the strut angles is beyond me so any practical observations were more than welcome.

The idea of having the struts in compression all the time I thoroughly agree with. I avoids the feeling of "Backlash" as the struts go in and out of compression. Importantly if you chose not to have them in compression struts can be damaged by over extension.  

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Tow Itch wrote:I see the bed bracket is not at the mid point of the frame. the weight of the awning helps keep the folded bed down? You chose asymmetric positioning because.....
I did fit the in the asymmetric position as the ones on cars are
Stupid question from me but then I'm puzzled by your answer. If we look at the piece on gas struts [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and my first questions on strut fitting we can see I was preoccupied with where on the bed you might fit the anchor point in respect of how high up the bed it was fixed.

Tow Itch wrote:Likewise the bed, rather than spacing from the upright in the "I" section what about a plate on the the base extending outwards? The bed hinges from it's base so if anything it's equalising the forces.Though this would Slightly decrease the force on a bed to be unfolded, and increase the lifting force on the extended bed and increasing the need for a catch to hold the extended bed down.This statement is in error the bed hinges at the top of the bed so if one end of the gas strut was joined there it would decrease the force on the bed in its folded position but would further increase the force on the unfolded bed. A fixing point as high (on the opened bed) as possible would tend to equalise the push on the bed in folded and unfolded states but that brings it's own problems of possible gaps and draughts from the bat wing.
So it might have been good if I'd read my own initial questions rather than ask you a daft question. Curiously it was only me when re reading the piece who realised I'd got the affect raising or lowering the bed anchor the wrong way round.

Next question what was fitted asymmetrically as on cars then?

Interesting to note you fitted the anchor near the top of the bed frame Steve near the bottom.


Yes i need catches to hold the beds in the open position i have not fitted them yet.Am going to use toddle button ones that will just going to turn onto the brackets that the bed sits on

I think I've accepted that catches and holding the bed down is no bad thing. If you are looking at catch designs there is: John's a picture of which is featured in the gas strut thread. Riva use one of the saddle clips in an upside down u configuration and it is screwed to the bed base to act as a hinge so it can be pivoted to lock over the piece of the bed support directly beneath the bed. Jake just uses a bolt as a pin that passes through the "Thumb" at the top of the bed support and into the bed frame. As you have already have a slot for the thumb to pass into a pin might be an elegant fitting design for you. I can see you are thinking of using a "toddle button". Tried to Google toddle button and couldn't find anything. Picture please?


The struts are fully under load when the beds are open ,
I was just beginning to wonder if Riva were the only people fitting who got the struts to fully close up. Looking at this photo are they now fitting with the gas unit to the top?

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Light Bulb Moment. If you fit the struts upside down with the gas unit to the bottom are you offsetting the danger of the seals drying out against the danger of the bottom of the struts exposed to the elements (possible rusting) when the unit is folded up? A good question to ask Ian methinks.


Having read through the gas strut piece again I think it's still valid I don't think we have answered that many of my initial questions. We have learnt some details. e.g that even if the "right" way up struts might not have lubricated seals if bellow certain angles. (Dependent on manufacturer) We determined that Rover 25 struts were adequate and the problems stemmed from failing hinge rivets.  I'm ashamed that it's only on a reread that I have realised certain items.

Tow Itch wrote:This is the start of a topic for Gas Struts On Beds.

I got into a conversation about gas struts whilst in parallel I was thinking that they were a necessary tool for single handed erection.  

There has been quite a bit written about beds and gas struts but I think some of the basics have not been addressed.

I am intending to write a number of emails to various gas strut companies and some of the principals in Dandy diy gas strut design.

So allowing for the possibility that some of you know more than me (not difficult) here are my basic design questions?

If all the instructions for gas struts say fit with the body uppermost why has everyone done the opposite other than the German builder and the diy Destiny bed struts?

What happens if we change the offsets for the fixing of the mounting points? The dimensions on the diagram shown in the Yahoo group show 330mm out from the hinge point on the bed and 170mm down on the body. The picture of bed and strut system with failed rivets  highlighted seems to use differing dimensions much more like an equidistant spacing?

Why do we space the strut positions in the same way on both sides or indeed use the same struts? The LHS (upper) bed has the strain of pulling the whole roof across as well as the bed the RHS (lower) bed is erected with the roof bar sliding beneath the roof. When I get to quoting details to a gas strut supplier does anyone know the weight of the  bed frame (with or without bed) and the roof?
I see the the Destiny and Dimension struts are mounted asymmetrically. Indeed the rear ones lie with the bed end lower than the body.

Are Rover 25 standard struts universally considered to be inadequate?

The self made mounting brackets are actually a difficulty or an expense. What is the corner construction of the body like where the bracket attaches? Does it have insufficient strength to allow mounting on one face only? Likewise the bed, rather than spacing from the upright in the "I" section what about a plate on the the base extending outwards? The bed hinges from it's base so if anything it's equalising the forces.Though this would Slightly decrease the force on a bed to be unfolded, and increase the lifting force on the extended bed and increasing the need for a catch to hold the extended bed down. This statement is in error the bed hinges at the top of the bed so if one end of the gas strut was joined there it would decrease the force on the bed in its folded position but would further increase the force on the unfolded bed. A fixing point as high (on the opened bed) as possible would tend to equalise the push on the bed in folded and unfolded states but that brings it's own problems of possible gaps and draughts from the bat wing.    

I want to illustrate this but can't lift pictures and diagrams from word documents. I can open in "Open Office" but cant copy pictures or diagrams. If you can please PM me and send the copies through that media or if needs be I'll forward my email address for you to then post to.
Think I've got something wrong? Got more questions? Anything else? Please comment this is my opening attempt at a work in progress, hopefully it can all be cut and pasted to provide a definitive guide in the end.
Though pictures and ideas are coming from a variety of sources the majority of the details come from files in the Yahoo site
We wrote War and Peace on caravan wiring only in the end to find a suitable PDF that covered what we sweated blood over. As we were hardly likely to find similar on fitting gas struts I'm happy to have asked others what their thoughts are.


We have strayed somewhat from the subject of Bed leg Brackets. I'm going to copy this post over to the end of Gas Struts if anyone has more to add if they could post there. T.H.

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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Guest on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 12:56 pm

Hi had time to go down a fit the turn button locks to the bed bases to hold down the bed down .
Am not happy with it all opens up nice and easy , the struts are most under compression when the beds are fully open position

 
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Helen
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Helen on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:02 pm

Looking good  

After shying away from fitting struts to our Dandy (seen a few that have had problems because of them) I think we may have to because the beds seem to have got heavier over the years

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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Guest on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:11 pm

Hi Helen
You going to do them your self or get someone to do them for you ?
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Helen
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Helen on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:14 pm

We'd do them ourselves Graham, and probably after winter now as John's tied up helping my dad restore the orange Dandy.

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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Guest on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:18 pm

Well done they are easy to make the brackets or you can buy the ones from http://www.sgs-engineering.com/ which will save time and maybe look a bit more nicer ? . If i can be of any help just let me no
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Helen
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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Helen on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:35 pm

I'm just looking through your pics and figuring out how you did yours, if we need help when we get around to doing them I'll give you a shout  

I think the last meet helped us see the difference they make, both Terry & Aprils Dandy and ours were folded to the stage where you lift over the beds (wasn't windy that day) so John and Terry lifted Terry's Dandy beds over with the help of the struts ...... then they lifted ours. Both made funny noises then used colourful language as they lifted ours   lol! 

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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Guest on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 1:52 pm

I no that feeling i can just abot lift the beds on my own with out the struts but do struggle and i did not like the way the beds bent when lifting form one end , But with the struts its so easy on your own and the beds don't flex as bad as the strut on the other side helps in lifting the bed .

navver

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Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by navver on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 7:20 pm

I think the turn buttons are actually turn buckles aren't they. On ours with steel beds, it's really easy lifting the beds but I have to push hard to get them down. I'm pushing against the strut and the roof. Without struts it would be hard to initially lift the beds, but once past vertical the weight of the bed would lift the roof.

When open the beds lift an inch or two without the clips.

I have opened one with steel beds with 2 of us and I must say I would not like to do it on my own whereas with the struts it is much easier.

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Guest

Re: Gas Struts On Beds

Post by Guest on Sun 08 Sep 2013, 7:31 pm

Just checked where i got the turn buttons and they are advertized as turn buttons
but am sure they have a few names . I don't have to push my bed down that hard
just light perssure with one hand .

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